One of my cardinal rules of effective dating is “Do not offer options when asking a prospective date about preferences. Get the information and make a plan.” I did not follow this rule when I asked Marianna out for the evening. Essentially, I let her plan the date and added my own twist as we went along.
Marianna had not visited the treasured sandwich shop of her childhood memories in years. She decided that making the 2.5hr drive would be worth the pleasure of eating a sandwich at a rickety wooden table. I hold this trip up as an example whenever I’m asked why I try to keep first dates limited to brief afternoon encounters. But how could I argue? Marianna was beautiful, determined, and insistent that she couldn’t think of a better person to make the trip with.
Spontaneous chap that I am, I gladly embraced the idea of also visiting Marianna’s grandfather “since we would be in the neighborhood anyway.”
It was a warm summer afternoon and we took the jeep. Top down, wind blowing in our faces, I drove the seacoast route to her grandfather’s neighborhood. We liked the same music. We both greeted the toll booth attendant (no quick-pay on the jeep) and simultaneously noticed the live Canada Goose sitting quietly in the passenger seat of a late-model Mercedes that passed us.
Have you ever ridden around a store in a grocery cart as an adult? It’s a rite of passage in finding a sense of humor as an adult that I highly recommend. Marianna had not yet had such an experience and I pushed her around as we gathered ice cream and her grandfather’s favorite kind of pie (see where this is heading?).
Bring on the 87 year-old grandfather with a fondness for petting his obese pet cat. Fat cats are fine by me. Petting them when they seem to have a late-stage oozing skin infection doesn’t help me swallow pie and ice cream. But I did. I sat on a bench covered with afghans, having spent nearly 5 hours on a date with a brand new person, watching a very old man rubbing his fingers in cat ooze.
When he asked me how I felt about the Cubs? I told him that I didn’t think they’d ever win the World Series. I don’t watch a lot of baseball and I’m typically not out to hurt the feelings of others, but I knew I hated the cubs right then.
I’m fairly certain he didn’t hear what I said because he continued the conversation as usual. I know Marianna didn’t hear me because her smile didn’t disappear. But I knew what I’d done and that’s why I classify that date as a failure.
- I’d entered into a situation with a person I knew very little about without setting any sort of time restrictions on our meeting. I’m not saying to set beginning and ending times for your dates, but have an idea about how long things are going to take and plan accordingly.
- I’d allowed myself to remain in a situation that I knew would turn negative in the long run. Now when I see a situation on par with non-lucid guy+infected cat, I remove myself from that environ.
- I had already spent so much time with Marianna on our ride down that I’d depleted much of my raw inquisitive energy and left myself open to social blindsiding. Allowing myself to use up so much of that energy also meant that I lost out on the opportunity to make a lonely person’s day by gladly participating in a conversation that interested them. He didn’t know I wasn’t involved. But I do and I still feel badly about it.
Do not allow yourself to get so caught up in how well you’re getting along with somebody that you lose sight of the goal: leave them wanting more. More time with you, more knowledge about you, more ways to smile. Marianna was a lovely person but I set us up for failure by committing to more than I had resources for that day. Had we met up for coffee and an afternoon chat, who knows where we’d be. I still have trouble eating blueberry pie without wincing.
Seth
Photo credit danperry.com, em
#5
OMG – there are so many things wrong here. Not with the blog- but with the date and the girl!!! I could go on forever – I need more background info here!!! I am so concerned or confused, I don’t know which one yet!!!
Ewwww, cat ooze! Not good. Could you convert your advice for a good date into a mathematical equation so that I can calculate my time, energy, creativity and potential?
PS – Love the “Leave them wanting more” principle. This is where I fall down on the job so often!
Yea bro I don’t really get what you were going after either. Why would you go on a 2.5 hour drive for a first date? Just being willing to do that conveys neediness and makes it seem like you are totally sold on her.
Over the phone a first date needs to be framed like you’re asking her to tag along with you on something that you’re planning on doing anyway, and it should be clear that you’re not quite sure about her but interested to learn more.
That said, you better have kcufed her. While the situation isn’t ideal, the time warp element of this date will make it seem like she’s known you forever. If you play your shit right you could have her thinking about how much she wants to have sex with you for like 10 hours straight in 20 different locations. Then it’s just a question of logistics.
T.S. Thanks for visiting! I’m sorry you’re concerned/confused but listing a comprehensive background would render the entry cumbersome and entirely too long. Is there something in particular you’d like to know? I can volunteer that this date happened a few years ago. For obvious reasons, it stands out in my mind as a failure.
Pansy: I wish there were a mathematical solution to this! Unfortunately, it seems like intuition, good planning, a sense of adventure, and timing still rule the day. You should only be falling down on the job if it’s to lure some handsome man into running over to help you back up!
Hammer: Yes, this was one of the dates that pushed me toward my tendency toward brief, afternoon dates. I like how you phrase the way to invite somebody out. Takes some of the stress out of the situation and encourages everybody to be themselves!
You’ve got the time-warp part entirely right. Length was one of the big problems with the date and why I tripped up and told the elderly gent off at the end. That aspect could be used to tire oneself out or, as you’re suggesting, to wear down her inhibitions. While I tend to shy away from judging the success of a date by the amount of sex that transpired as a result, I see where you’re coming from. So much emphasis has been put on sex lately that a “oh, you guys didn’t hook up? You must not have gotten along very well then” is something I hear a lot as I’m around people discussing their dates.
Seth
Seth,
I agree, this wasn’t a successful date. You can go ahead and over-analyze everything you did and didn’t do (one of my favorite hobbies, btw) but it seems to me the one fatal mistake was just your time commitment. I never commit to spending more than 30 minutes on a first date. I leave it open, so that if we want to spend more time together (up to a couple of hours) we can. But a drink, a walk in the park, a quick cup of coffee – that’s all I’ll commit to. Anything more and I’m potentially trapped with someone I don’t want to be with. If he’s a great guy we can make plans to see each other again. Like you said: leave them wanting more.
Who fucks on first dates anymore? How 90s.
There is so much that I could say- but here is what I will say:
You are right about the major principle-Leave them wanting more.
The beginning is all about creating desire and interest- and leaving time and space to get to know more later- is like a magnet drawing them back to you!
But no point in beating yourself up about being less than rosy to Grandpa.
Lesson learned!
SingleGirl: I’m glad we all agree that the date was terrible! Try eating pie with an oozing cat in the room…you’ll not consider it to be such a comfort food for long!
I like your plan for first dates. As for sleeping together on a first date, I think think many people set themselves up for failure by placing so much weight on how much/how fast/how hot things get on their first date. Sometimes, ::shocker:: it’s okay to have a conversation and realize you enjoy just talking. Enjoy the little thrills of initial touches and meaningful looks. The armadillo humping will come soon enough, eh? =)
Dr. Jenn: Why do you and TS hold back! Let us all know what you’re thinking! I could have been more clear in saying that I knew how much of a failure this date was. It was #5 on a list of 5 ways I’ve ruined dates. Oh yes, I’ve blown things out multiple times! Point is that I’ve learned from every mistake. As for the old guy: like I said, he didn’t notice. But I noticed that I was out of line and that’s what I regret. The cat deserved everything evil!
Seth
Hmm .. wondering how leaving them wanting more weighs in with overdelivering on expectations. (I am thinking about it from a business, not romantic, sense.)
Interesting thoughts you’re generating!!
GVC: On first dates, unlike an initial client meeting, there’s a need to create perceived value that has more to do with emotions and intrigue than anything else.
Overdelivering on a client’s expectations leads to a better relationship with the client so long as you haven’t put yourself in a compromising and ultimately expensive position.
Being smart, funny, and good company usually works for a date. Overdelivering by pulling out all the stops turns things into a big deal too quickly and most of us are wired to immediately suspect that something might be amiss…even if that something is just somebody trying very, very hard.
I had to comment on the idea of asking a woman on a date by making it seem like you’re inviting her along on something you were already going to do. Honestly? If a man asked me out that way, I’d turn him down. It’s disrespectful. Keeping the date casual and with the potential to be short (or not) is a great idea. But give her the courtesy of knowing that you are interested in getting to know her. Otherwise don’t be surprised if she is less than interested.
No woman I know would be interested in spending time with someone who makes them feel as though they can barely be bothered and is not sure she’s worth it.
Jane Wonder: Thanks for your comment! I think one of the main differences between my and Hammer’s approaches to dating stems from what we see as success. From Hammer’s comments, the idea of dating without sex is, to him, dramatic failure.
I’m on the side of things where I believe that learning to build relationships that grow over time is well worth the effort. I may not get as much sex as early as Hammer, but I really enjoy what I do get because it’s fulfilling on multiple levels.
One of my favorite women to go on “dates” with is a terrific married lady with whom I’ve never shared more than a friendly hug. I know it might be over-simplification, but when you date for something other than sex, it makes sex THAT much more fun when you do get around to it!
There are many examples of quality being more important than quantity of sex. Some take a little longer than others to discover that truth for themselves.
Seth
@Jane Wonder: lol you’re such a girl saying that you wouldn’t hang out with me if I invited you along on something. Women do crazy things for guys that they’re attracted to.
You’re going on a date with me for my company because I’m an attractive, interesting, charismatic and funny guy. The activity is so secondary as to not even matter. If the activity is that important to you, good riddance. A good girl is hard to find, a hot girl is not.
@Seth: I date looking for someone special, but I have super high standards as you’ve seen if you’ve read my “What I look for in a Long Term Mate” post. But my standards are much lower for sex. If I’m out on a date with you, I expect it to end in sex. In fact, I don’t think that you can really truly get to know someone until the sex part is out of the way.
yeah that girl pretty much was the ruler of that date.
not so much.
I think the one fatel mistake on the date was not the time, or the cat, but the unknown that became to quickly known. I think that for first dates there should be a known or an “emergeny exit” because we all know that those are sometimes needed. Like in your previous blogs it’s about knowing what a person likes and creating a stressfree fun time that is easy to know what is going on with. My thoughts are this: When starting on a new first date always have your knowns and unknown straight and when you discover an unknown that tells you to run. RUN!! Don’t wait for it to sort it’s self out. As, always learn that others may see someone else as more/less important then they view you.
Hammer: You never fail to come through! I appreciate your consistency while I disagree with the distance you place between those you might love and those you sleep with. I try to make sure they’re the same person.
Alexa, Thanks for stopping by! Yes, it’s listed under “5 ways I ruined dates” for a reason. One of those dates I learned a lot from back in the day.
Nicky: I’m glad we agree! Yes, it was truly a horrendous date. “Dating Horror” is a good place for it! I think everybody has one of those stories of a date that went too long and got weird. This post described mine. I’m glad I paid attention and learned from it. Otherwise I’d still be spending entire weekends running around at the beck and call of strangers! Thanks for sharing!
Seth
Well.. Seth… at least you realize your mistakes.
Now don’t ever do that again. Sheesh.
Deline: You never learn. What I said was that making the girl seem like an after thought as Hammer suggested is a sure fire way to find yourself alone. Of course the activity on the date is secondary to the person you’re with. But why on earth would I want to spend time with someone who goes out of their way to make it clear that they can’t be bothered to make time for me and aren’t sure they want to be with me anyway? A “good girl” is indeed hard to find. And those of us who are will not tolerate that kind of shenanigan. If you’re only interested in getting laid, go on ahead treating women like that. But if you want something more lasting with someone who’s worth it, making a woman feel that way will never serve your purpose.
Jane, thanks for clarifying! In a world of ulterior motives, it seems like the biggest difference between a pick-up-artist and what I’m trying to help people do…is that a PUA usually hops from conquest to conquest in a search to feed an addiction to the self-esteem boost of a complete stranger hopping into bed with them.
I’m on the other end of the spectrum where I believe that honesty, communication, a sense of adventure, and real effort will get the girl a PUA has no chance with. You’ll meet a bunch of friends along the way. And sex? Oh, it’s MUCH better with the mindset I try to spread. I’m certain of it!
Seth
You guys don’t get it. Self confidence and abundance mentality are attractive. The pickup artist is the male equivalent of the hot girl. He has a huge amount of value to all women.
If Brad Pitt invites a girl to hang out with him, do you think she’s going to say no? I have as much value to the women I pickup as Brad Pitt.
Hah! I love Jane. And I disagree with her on this one.
I twittered something yesterday, that I got a lot of positive response…
“Guys, don’t judge women. They want what you want. Don’t hold them to a higher or lower level than you hold yourself.”
It’s very common mistake by men that feel the need to lay out the red carpet on a first date with a woman. Why?? No one knows each other.
Why set expectations to such a highbar, it’s bound for failure.
Guy asks girl to go out with him. He picks her up, bring a flower, picks up the tab on the expensive dinner, picks the tickets for a show, drops her off… and now he expects a return on his investment.
Girl likes the attention but notices how preoccupied his about demonstrating how great of a guy he is, that she can’t help but feel whether this is part of the show he just bought tickets too. Now they’re standing at the doorstep, she feels he hasn’t gotten to know her, so doesn’t feel the connetion, here’s your hug, Guy, no go away.
Guy leaves fustrated, wondering why she didn’t like him, maybe he needs to do it up. Curses at himself because he forgot to open a door or walk on the wrong side of the sidewalk, or some inconsequential thing.
These crappy dates happen all the TIME.
I’m not saying don’t make it special… but what’s special is spending time together, whatever the activity.
Now Seth, that’s quite the assumption you’re making about “PUA’s”…
“PUA usually hops from conquest to conquest in a search to feed an addiction to the self-esteem boost of a complete stranger hopping into bed with them.”
There have never been “complete strangers” in my bed… I got to know them very well.
Sure, one night stands are a beast in and of itself. Typically, but you have to acknowledge that it takes two for that happen.
And the “conquest” is also be quite a bit of fun for both parties, and again, that takes two.
You’re implying a false notion that PUAs are somehow all about not being honest. On contrary, everything that’s behind getting men to be, better men… dictates around the fact that men need to stop all this hero bullshit.
You state your intent, and you make it very clear, who you are. I love women, I’m not interested in a monagamous relationship at this time. Take it or leave it. I don’t have trick anyone.
And you’d be very surprised how many “good girls” understand it, respect it, and accept it.
I think from what I’ve been reading, we’re actually not that apart bro… I hate to break it to ya because I know you don’t seem like you’re one of … us. haha!
Great blog btw!
D
—>I feel like I’m reading a post of it’s own! I’ve had a few of those crappy dates in my time! It’s always nice to move past that a bit. Learning to just enjoy another’s company and time…is key. Yes, I think some of our approaches are similar. Depending on what you’re looking for in a partner, the fast and furious lead-in of a classic pick-up-machine can end your night in the arms of a woman, but perhaps not the one you really wish you had. Seth< ---
Just wow.
I’ve been so ingrossed by the comments that I’ve almost lost track of what the post was about.
Almost.
#1 mistake was agreeing to a 2 hour drive for a 1st date. Seems you’ve learned your lesson so for that alone the date served it’s purpose, grandfather and oozy cat aside.
Ahh Hammer – You my friend seem to be the classic case of what I call ‘the point where being confidently cocky over extends itself into just plain obnoxious’. Yes confidence, and even to an extent cockiness are a turn on (for me at least), coming across like you just know you’re God’s gift is not. It in fact has the immediate effect of turning me OFF.
Jane – definitely in agreement about not going for the ‘eh you since I’m doing this anyway I guess you can tag along’ approach. That method will only score the removal of your number from my phone, and definitely not the removal of any panties.
Love the time limit established in advance idea… as there is really no gracious way to otherwise excuse yourself from a date. It prevents all the scheming… planning to have a friend call you at 7:35pm to fake an emergency, etc. are all immature measures to escape a bad date.
Hi Ame! Thanks for your comment!
I like that you bring up the oft-advertised concept of enlisting a friend to time a call in case a date is going badly. As an adult, I’d hope that I am able to successfully interact and spend time with people I don’t prefer and find ways to remove myself from disastrous dates on my own.
That said, sometimes it can be interesting to stick around and see what happens. Trainwreck dates often supply endless fodder for future conversations.
You all have been going to town on my ruined dates…imagine if I’d been born with what I know now…there’d be so little horror to discuss!
Enjoy your weekend, Ame!
Seth
Fascinating commentary. I liked how you detailed and then analyzed the date. Setting limits is almost as important as setting expectations.
Seth,
I’m sorry, but I found your post most interesting, entertaining, and just a bit funny. Why? Because all that is waaaayyyyy behind me, thank goodness.
In the days long, long, long ago, I had horror stories and learned a few lessons about dating. The trouble is, due to senior moments, I no longer remember them. *laugh* After being married 47 years, and to the same man, I wouldn’t know how to begin to date.
I’m glad to see that you learn from your experiences, though, and are willing to share those lessons with others.
If you’ve made it for 47 years, you’re either a very quiet masochist or you know a trick or two about dating, Vivian! Sure, this post was about a adolescent screw-up of a date. If you read further, I hope you’ll also find information that applies beyond the realm of young dating!
Tarot: Oh, if only I knew how to set expectations correctly every time! Then I’d always be pleasantly surprised at just the right level and would wish for the date to continue past the deadline!
Thanks for stopping by!
Thank you!!! My friends all tell me that I'm too harsh for refusing to go for dinner and a movie on a first date. I'll go to dinner OR a movie, but never both (and really if I have to go on a date at all, I'd rather limit it to half an hour over coffee)