“Seth, I don’t like it when guys buy drinks for me because then I feel like I owe it to them if they want to have sex with me later.”
Said my talented, smart, beautiful friend, Alisha, just a few days ago. Her comment lead to a conversation about who should pay on a first date and what it means if the girl asks to pick up the check.
As it goes with many conversations about gender and relationships, many thoughts an opinions are inspired by a very simple question: Who should pay on a first date?
Maggie says:
I think that while the man ought to pay, he is not obligated to (it’s just polite) and the woman should always offer- not assume- and be willing to accept splitting the bill graciously if that’s what he seems to want or need to do. If he wants to pay and she feels uncomfortable about him paying she will probably insist more than passively and he should agree to split it, otherwise (and in most cases), he should thank her for offering and buy her dinner or a coffee.
I used to never want the man to pay for the same reasons as your friend. Many men are wrong-thinking about this- where they think of it as an investment in potential sex rather than a kind gesture to honor the time spent together regardless of where it leads. I just don’t tend to run into cads like the former as much anymore and therefore I have changed as I’ve gotten older (late 30s now) And frankly, I will graciously split an expensive dinner bill, even when the man expressly invited me out, but I am not (as) likely to want to date someone who isn’t thoughtful enough to spend even a nominal amount of money to take me out (if you’re broke invite me to coffee..it’s not the cost it’s the principle.)
The tricky thing for men is they don’t want to set a model of paying for everything every time, which is quite understandable, but the unwillingness for a man to simply pay $2-$12 for that first coffee or glass of wine, tells me he will never open the door for me, he will always give himself the better chair, the bigger slice, whatever. He is always out for justice. In this man’s mind if women want to be considered equal they shouldn’t EVER expect a shred of chivalry or favoritism.
Please. I love a little chivalry, and would venture to say that is true of many/most women. I don’t expect it constantly, but a little goes a long way. It might be old-fashioned for such a new fashioned woman as myself, but a man with conviction, kindness and backbone doesn’t only not have hangups about spending a little money on me- it wouldn’t even cross his mind not to. Sounds complicated, but it’s not.
Have good intentions and a generous heart. If she’s digging for gold you shouldn’t be dating her. You picked the wrong one. If she is like me, she just wants to feel special enough to warrant a romantic meal or a simple coffee on the first date. And if she’s like me- she’ll happily buy you a beer next time and the bill will usually be split, but she’ll like that you still buy sometimes. Damn. She might even make you dinner for two with groceries she bought. Now what do you think?
Is this a workable solution to the “who should pay on a first date” question?
Who do you think should pay on a first date? Do you think the guy should pay? Should the girl offer to pay, insist on paying, or sit back and ignore the check entirely? I’d like to know what you think.
photo credit: trent bigelow
Ap: Nicely said! It’s good to be straightforward. If you scared them off, then it’s not like they’re somebody you’d be able to be yourself around anyhow, yes?
Guilt isn’t any fun at all. I’m with you on that. Unless it’s because you had 18 slices of chocolate cake…in which case I might feel guilty, but I’ll laugh about it! =)
The person who asked. But you should never assume so I think the person invited should always offer (and mean it!)
@Maggie: I have had the best dates while getting coffee or grabbing something in one of those “dives” you mention. It’s really supposed to be about the people involved, as far as I’m concerned. You know? When we’re 85 and tired of talking to each other, lets go to fancy places to eat, okay?
@Susan: That’s the kicker. You’ve got to mean it! I owe you dinner at some point!
I’ve been kicking this one around and enjoying the replies. Some of them are sort of troubling. i.e. Is there really some expectation of sex for the spending?
I’d hardly call that true intimacy which I think is sad.
I haven’t been in the dating game as it were for quite some time, but I think whoever asks should pay, or if it’s kind of a mutual thing, or there are mitigating factors of income the bill should be split.
I know I came into the relationship with my wife with no money whatsoever. She was doing okay.
We figured it out and built the rest together.
@Jim: I agree with your summary of missing intimacy. You say you initially had no money but your wife had some. How did that affect where you went on dates/what you did?
You were able to figure things out and make them work. That counts for a lot!
Well, in the interest of full disclosure I have to say that my wife and I moved in together having never gone out on a date.
That being said, we spent a lot of time together at home cooking dinner, drinking wine, walking the dogs and such.
We didn’t go out a lot, and then only to places that were inexpensive like putt-putt and such.
It sounds corny, but it didn’t really matter what we did or where we went as long as we were together.
Maybe that doesn’t sound corny after all…
Seth, you are the first to tell me that-PURIST? I like it
You see the delema then? Most agree that communication is very important, yet we all can’t agree on something fairly simple like who pays on a date and why.
I think the usual “Who invites pays” is a good general rule that can, if we all understand this rule, resolve the question and yet still allow wiggle room.
“Hey Seth, I know you invited me but I really would like to pay for this date, ok?”
No matter how you answer the problem is solved.
Bobby the purist
@Jim: No, it doesn’t sound corny at all! You really moved in without dating..roommates?
@Seth, Not just roommates. We slept in the same bed from day one.
We said we’d be roommates if it didn’t work out – ride out the lease so to speak. I think that was more something we said than what we actually believed would happen. What can I say, we just knew.
We had both been engaged to other people and “had to” move out of our respective residences. It just made sense to take the leap.
I’ve been told there’s a screen play or book in there somewhere. Just not a project I’ve tackled yet.
I’m enjoying this little trip down memory lane though. Thanks!
@Jim
I’m enjoying getting to know some of the crazy stories that have made up your life so far!
It takes a lot of heart to go with that “hunch” and leap into a relationship feet-first with your heart open.
You have my respect!
When I first moved to Japan i had the delightful experience of having the girl pay or go dutch. I think this was because it is so expensive for young people that it impossible not to do so! Not only that but Valentines day if a holiday for men!! (the next month is white day, a reverse holiday)
This seeming flip flop of male female roles was a whole lot of fun but I found myself wanting to revert to my chivalrous American upbringing. I would pay for the first day and we would rotate.
I agree with Tom that a lot of men pay in hopes of having her “owe” them and hopefully get sex but not all and it does not mean I will stop paying for the first date!
Unfortunately the man paying really is a part of western culture and to not role with it and make the best of it is as bad as putting ketchup to your sushi.
LOL
this underlines my post on how confused we all are as a country on who pays for the date. I’m just big on being gracious, thoughtful and aware… many of your readers were aware of uncomfortable pauses, situations and expectations and handled it graciously and THEN made the decision on whether or not they were going to go on date #2.
Personally and not as someone who writes a dating blog — I look for generosity, respect and intent when deciding on a second date.
–Any guy who expects nooky because he bought something is off my reservation. Immediately.
–I’ll admit to insisting on the split only when I am decidedly not interested in the guy.
–And when interested, I usually find a way to pay for something — a coffee afterwords, the movie tickets, the taxi fare… something to acknowledge that I do not expect a free ride but am interested in seeing where it goes.
–The only rule I follow is that whoever initiates the date needs to expect to pay. And yes, I have asked guys out in the past AND payed for the whole date.
–And Seth, yes, I also almost ALWAYS offer to split. If he accepts, I do tend to assume that it was not a love connection and we are both on to the next.
@Mike
Yes, I see how it is a “part of Western Culture” but like many aspects of our culture, I don’t believe it is something that needs to continue.
The argument that something is a part of a culture has allowed us to neglect needed changes in many parts of the world to the detriment of millions and what should be our own deep shame.
@Kelli:
As long as there’s a genuine offer to split the check, I think the point has been made that nobody is being bought.
However, you and many others say that you insist on splitting the check when you don’t like the guy. Do you think this is a common enough practice to actually go in “the book of hints”?
Seth
as far as the insist-a-split hint — you may have something of a keeper there. I’m not the only girl I know who does the same thing — I think what links us is a desire to not ever lead someone into having the wrong impression. Some girls will just let the guy pay and never intend to return his call when he asks her out again. I just know that I would never want to be treated that way… so I don’t treat others that way.
Guys — if you are arm wrestling a girl for the bill, you may have a problem… I’m jus’ sayin’…
Nobody will read this, because there are so many comments but…
As a man, it has been my practice to split the dinner bill and then pay for coffee and dessert afterwards.
This seems to work because it allows both of us to participate in a dating gesture without making me resentful of paying for an expensive dinner and her feel strangely obligated.
And yes, if you are going to claim that women are equal to men, you can not have your cake and eat it too!
But in my mind, paying for the dessert and coffee is a necessary nod to the “tradition of Western culture” in which we unfortunately live and date in.
Hi Paul!
To the contrary, being last on the list is usually just as good as being first when it comes to having your comment read!
Paying for desert and coffee, just as you would for a friend or co-worker, is not a question of equality but simple nicety. I think many of us put a lot less weight on who pays for coffee and dessert than we do on who pays for dinner.
I like your plan. It allows you to start on even footing without any “debt” on either side while giving a bit of room for your old school charm to shine through in the end. Good for you! =)
The answer is simple: the person who asks pays.
I have had no problem letting women pay when they asked me out. As a male, I don’t feel any less manly if I allow a woman to pay. In fact, it is flattering and feels nice to be treated once in a while.
That being said, when a woman asked me out, if I accepted, I let her know upfront that a simple walk would be sufficient. That way, she wouldn’t feel obligated to spend a lot of money to impress me.
Bob: I’ve had exactly that happen to me and it was a lot of fun!
I like how you make it clear that you need not be impressed right from the start. I think we’d all do very well to do that. =)
For me, I think whoever asks should be the one to pay (in most situations).
I’ve done a fair amount of asking myself and have no problem paying for dinner, drinks & tip.
If I’m not having a good time or I’m just totally uninterested in the person, I always suggest going Dutch.
@Nakia
“suggesting” going Dutch seems to be emerging as a common way of telling a date they suck.
Which is too bad because it blurs the line between independent and uninterested. It also reinforces my feeling that the pay-for-play mentality is far more deep-seated than most are willing to admit.
You don’t take her to dinner. The dinner date is too strong a signal you’re interested and blows the chance for any mystery. You do something free or low cost, low expectations, easy for both, and of limited duration. Have tea or coffee for an hour, then bolt. This is to screen, build trust, and build attraction. It’s all about escalation. Start small then build to consummation. I would actually avoid the dinner date until after you have consummated. Then whoever asks pays. Or better yet, cook her a meal. It doesn’t take much to learn a few sure fire recipes that will make you seem like an expert bachelor.
@neal – spoken like a true pick-up-artist.
I’m a bigger fan of actually admitting to interest and building a relationship on a foundation of trust instead of churning through a fuck-and-leave machine because I’m scared of loving and losing.
I think that it is a very interesting and amusing article. Practically all its main points are true.
Most of the guys I've been out with always pay (no expectations for later). If we go on more than 2 or 3 dates I start going dutch or alternating who pays. We've established that we are interested, we're comfortable with each other, and I think it's unfair for a man to have to get every date when I am getting just as much enjoyment out of his company. I was paying for my meals, movies, etc before and I can continue to do so now. His budget shouldn't have to take a hit while I'm sitting on extra cash (especially in this ecomony).
Love it. @riasharon told me to come check out the Dating blog. Very nice to see a male-led relationship site.
The responses to this post intrigued me. I guess I’ve come to think that you should first take yourself “out to dinner” enough to know your rhythm. How you’re wired. Ya know? Then decide things you know work well for you in relationships, platonic or otherwise, that work well for you. THEN think about how those characteristic manifest themselves in actions, especially early on.
I know this about myself, I’m wired to keep running in one direction, really hard, until I hit something. Very strong. But the thing is, I’m always interested in being with people who are more interested accomplishing the end goal, rather than nitpicking the particulars of how you got there, and who does what. That drives me bonkers. “Eye on the prize, people.”
If a man said to me, “let’s go dutch,” meaning splitting a check and using two cards, yada, yada, I’d know he wasn’t right for me. Especially if we were deep in conversation (and if you’re not by the end of the first meal, you never will be), and he put it on hold to negotiate the payment. Boring.
It’s not about principal or gender to me. It’s also not about what is owed by the recipient of the meal. That’s just silly. It’s about the fact that I know I’m focused on getting through the boring, though necessary, stuff in life quickly and efficiently to get to the fun stuff, like where you’re going for ice cream. And I know that matching yourself with someone who feels fundamentally different about things is bad. And I know that fundamental beliefs are always evident in tiny decisions. Voila.
I would encourage people to think less about what “who pays” means culturally, and more about what it means about their fundamental values. It will be different, and should be different, for most people. Then ask if they match your own. Easy, right?
(Laughing) Not so much.
Nice site, Seth.
Jen
Lord knows I am a newbie at this but my approach so far is that when I’m meeting someone new, I can’t generally tell during the course of ONE date if the relationship is moving forward into a romantic one. If I gain a new friend, that’s fantastic!
If I were meeting a friend for lunch/dinner, we’d probably split the bill. So I always go in with that intention and assumption. But if my companion stops me from paying, I’m not going to make a scene either.
I think who ever invites should pay.
If a girl is willing to accept an invitation to go on a date she should not expect to pay nor should she make a big deal about the guy paying. Of course the guy shouldn’t make a big deal for paying either.
If a girl wants to pay on a date, she should invite. If a guy accepts her invitation he should not make a big deal about her paying.
Basically I think whoever extends the invitation should be willing to pick up the tab and whoever accepts the invitation should be willing to be treated. After all there is the next date (hopefully)…