Remember that old line about girls being sugar, spice, and everything nice? Elizabeth Lambert saw that societal mold coming and extended one of her long, muscular legs for a perfect trip. How? By playing soccer like a boy:
(If you ask me, the ponytail maneuver was pretty bold. She didn’t get a yellow card for that though. Not condoning her actions, but I love her pep and think the Refs were sleeping.)
Most guys aren’t interested in dating women like Elizabeth, Condoleezza, Hillary, or Michelle. Why? Because strong women with talent, focus, and goals are intimidating to those who aren’t so well equipped. Not just to men, but to people in general. It’s not just that men are avoiding strong women. Guys tend to avoid spending time with other guys who are much smarter, stronger, or somehow better-equipped than they are.
It’s a simple matter of the regular dude trying to avoid situations that will leave him feeling inadequate. In a first date scenario, most guys feel inadequate about something. Even the truly modern fellow who is well-educated, confident, and ready to treat any woman as his rightful equal gets nervous during the early stages of a relationship and will balk at the appearance of intellectual competition during a first or second date.
Your women’s studies professor (who may have been a male) probably told you that in order to be taken seriously you must be aggressive in letting the men around you know how much of an equal you are. If that approach is working out for you, fine. If it isn’t working so well–and this is my guess–you might do well to avoid thrashing your dates with punch lists of why you’re strong, confident, and a fantastic equal.
There are many other things that are important for a good relationship that can be discovered without being overly aggressive. If he turns out to be thoughtful, kind, funny, and quirky enough to be uniquely sexy, there’s a good chance he’ll be game to stay up late discussing the finer points of your thesis on Joan of Arc.
I have dated women who used both approaches:
Krista went through her equality punch list (even rattling off her SAT scores) and was disappointed with my lack of enthusiasm for her onslaught. In Krista’s case, I wasn’t intimidated. I just don’t care for such conversations during a first date. (I supposed I DID get to know her, though!)
Meaghan was different. I could tell she was classy by the way she carried herself. I could tell she was smart by the way she spoke and the words she used. I could tell she was confident when I went to pay the check (I typically go by the “I invite, I pay” rule) and she laughed me away with, “It’s okay, grandpa. I’ve got it this time.” Her joy for living and tremendous accomplishments in face of a terrible circumstances showed me amazing strength without ever having to say the words, “I am a strong woman.” Meaghan is my equal. Hell, Meaghan is better than me. I’m lucky to have her as a friend.
My point? If you are a strong, talented, and amazing woman, you don’t need to worry about the men who don’t want to date strong women. Let them hook up with the bimbos and get fat together. But you? Oh, wonderful creature, please don’t do yourself a disservice by trying to prove yourself to the men who are already happy to greet you as an equal.
Do you have anything to add? Leave me a comment!
Live ferociously!
Simon
If you’d like to receive future articles like this for free, click here for a free email subscription to The Dating Papers or here for RSS updates.
Why Men Don’t Want To Date Strong Women
Seth…
As always you bring up excellent points! I think however that balance is key. For instance, my lover loves it when I know what I want and I express it as such. He admires this trait in me. Then there are the softer moments when I literally curl up in his arms, crying softly about something that may have upset me terribly in the course of the day…and then when it comes to cerebral massaging, we are definitely equal with the understanding that each of us has our area of expertise and how exciting it is to share…like I said, balance.
P.S. If I have to “dumb down” for anyone…well, that obviously won’t work!
Thanks, Seth! I’ve missed stopping by to do my ping-pong dance:~)
Hiya Henie!
The penguins are always marching. =P
Your description of give-and-take sounds nurturing. Good stuff! Don’t ever dumb down yourself for anybody!
Glad to see you!
While I feel like most of this is common sense, it was really great to read your opinions on this topic from a guy perspective. It sort of made me step back, knowing I have alpha qualities that seem to outweigh my domestic, feminine qualities which I posses but tend to take a back seat. I’ve tried not talking, just smiling and asking dates a lot of questions about them. It tends to help diffuse the situation considering I am attrative (not to be conceited) but then it just kinda winds up like they want to have fun with me for a night and not take me seriously for the long haul. Your point is valid that there is a way to be a successful female without flaunting it. Through passive actions and articulate responses and conversation, like Meaghan, a confident guy looking for his counterpart that he actually respects and is attracted to (among other qualities, naturally), will respond favorably. If you make it a boxing match of accomplishments, then it’s just gonna lead a guy to wanna knock you out by round #2. That I learned in my 20’s…now I’m trying to figure it out in my mid-30’s. Thanks and keep on writing these insightful pieces – it’s so much better coming from the man rather than all these female relationship experts who are total b.s.
Isn’t part of the problem that the common sense stuff is so often the stuff left out in the rain on date nights? =)
I love your picture of the intellectual boxing match. Been there, regretted that. If you figure it all out, I hope you’ll drop by and let me know? I’d love to avoid more mistakes!
=)
Unless I’m misunderstanding, I think you’re equating Elizabeth’s actions with those of a strong woman with “talent, focus, and goals,” and than men will avoid men or women who are “smarter, stronger, or somehow better-equipped.” Elizabeth may be focused on goals at any cost, but she’s not actually making use of her talent, smarts or strength. Her actions are selfish, manipulative, inconsiderate and downright mean.
And none of those are qualities men OR women look for in the opposite sex.
Hi Jan,
No. Elizabeth simply acted in a way most would not expect from a girl. Her behavior was on par with that of soccer in general. We just tend to see behavior like that from guys, not girls.
Her behavior is shocking because she is a woman, not because she is a soccer player.
“Selfish, manipulative, inconsiderate, and mean” are all traits with positive flip sides that most people look for in potential partners. It is only once we get to know them (or play a game of soccer with them!) that we get to see the dark underbelly of the person we’ve set our affections on.
I’m not saying we should all go out and start throwing people to the ground. Not at all. I do think many of us would do well to be ourselves a bit more and let social expectations take the back seat.
So glad to read this, I have often asked male friends of mine this very question. Many men say they want a strong independent woman but when it comes down to it I feel many of the men I date really are intimidated.
I have been a single mother of three kids for the past 14 years. My ex lives 2000 miles away, and I have worked full time during those years and attended night school for most of those years.
It has made me a strong woman out of necessity. I can repair most things myself because I could not afford to pay a man to do it.
Thank you for this post. Although I am not aggressive enough to hurt another girl, I would like to find a man who is as strong.
You ARE a strong woman! =) Everybody likes to feel needed sometimes. Perhaps you don’t need him to change the oil or wash the dishes… but it’d be nice if he did. Doing stuff like that together can be fun, too.
Don’t give up! You’ll find him! =)
[DELETED] Your comment was hateful and off-topic. Save your claws for a different blog, girlfriend. Feel free to come back for another try when you feel like saying nice things about people.
Seth
You’re a rockstar just for writing on this topic…thanks Seth. I feel pretty lucky to count men as some of the most passionate feminist voices in my life, it’s a beautiful (and highly sexy) thing!
As a woman with a very strong personality, I have come to realize exactly what Seth says: leave the weak women to the weak men! If a man can’t handle my personality, then I move on. Interesting point about “punch lists” used to prove how strong one is. I have never done that as it is evident when talking to me that I am strong and successful, etc. I don’t have anything to prove when on a date. Now in business, I better come across as knowing what I’m talking about (insurance) or I will be living on the street. No one wants to spend money with a wuss who doesn’t seem to have the proper knowledge.
Leslie Ellis
http://leslieellis.yolasite.com/
Seth pointed me to this post. As usual, his recommendation has changed my day. In a good way.
Nothing constructive to add, just wanted to say I really liked this post. I wish I could say more than that but I just think it’s right on the money. Having dated strong women and less strong women, I prefer a strong, confident, outgoing woman. They are very hard to find, sadly. Though maybe that’s because I live in Minnesota, or just that it’s a trend that women feel the need to act less strong to appease men. I’m not qualified to answer that
Either way, great stuff. Thank you Simon.
I for one like strong women, but those that have to prove they are strong are anything but. If they truly are confident in their abilities they really don’t have to bash the guy over the head with them. I think this is what you were trying to get at with the comparison at the last.
Uh, no. Lambert’s not a strong woman; she’s a thug. If you’re enjoying that, you have a serious problem.
There are plenty of strong and principled women in just about any field you care to name, athletic or otherwise. I suggest you learn the difference between an abusive piece of garbage and a woman worth spending your time on.
Simon, that behavior is shocking regardless of who it comes from. There’s no way I’d go anywhere near a man who behaved in that manner. The women who do find it acceptable wind up in hospital themselves and castigated for loving abusive men.
Learn to tell the difference between strong and abusive.
This article is bull. A confident man is able to hold his own with a strong woman; the men that prefer the “sugar and spice” type are those that lack any sort of self-esteem themselves.
There need to be more like you!
This article is just full of trite excuses.
A strong person (male or female) will be able to handle themselves in a whole country full of strong people.
What strong people don’t want to deal with is untenable situations. It’s so much easier to remove yourself from a situation where the other party is so overbearing that it’s not even worth bothering with.
Life isn’t all roses, why intentionally surround yourself with thorns all the time?
Jeez, that’s just common sense.
And the whole “Elizabeth was acting like a man” line is just completely BS. Yes, men are “more known” to act this way but that’s because men are typically shown more in aggressive sports than women… or did there suddenly become a Women’s NFL and did the WNBA get widespread coverage? No, it did not.
Elizabeth’s actions were not normal even in an aggressive male sport. They were poor sportsmanship and poor sporstmanship is a sign of a weak sportsman–one that is inferior.
In short, she was a complete wanking twat trying to “win” by playing outside of the rules… something a 3 year old does when playing a board game.
“I’m lucky to have her as a friend.”
Friend. I suppose that says it all, doesn’t it?
Thing is, women don’t generally want guys who aren’t their equals or better in some crucial aspects. I used to get upset about being a girl who usually ends up in the friend zone, but then I figured out that this was a kind of illusion.
Strong women who have it in perspective and aren’t overly pushy are the kind of women men have always wanted to marry. Because so many people are into casual sex or have the wrong ideas about dating and marriage, it looks like we’re being left out, but we’re not. We’re just not suitable for guys who aren’t ready.
When a guy comes along who is ready though, your life changes quickly, to say the least. When you meet that special guy (and there are many despite the hype), who sees you as a kitten even if you can bench press him or got better scores in maths, you find you were better off being yourself.